How We Can Transform Our Inner Dialogue to Heal and Connect with Kimi Culp

Episode Transcript:

Chris Forbes 00:00:19  Welcome to the one you feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts. We have quotes like garbage in, garbage out or you are what you think ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don’t strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don’t have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it’s not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, How they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Kimmy Culp, a TV and film producer and the host of the All the Wiser podcast. As a filmmaker, television producer, and podcaster, Kimmy has traveled the world interviewing hundreds of people with the intention of inspiring audiences. Today, Kimmy and Eric do one of the collaborative interviews that Eric has done before where they’re really not talking about a specific project, but just having a conversation.

Eric Zimmer 00:01:42  Hello, Kimmy.

Kimi Culp 00:01:43  Hello, Eric.

Eric Zimmer 00:01:45  As listeners would have heard, this is a special collaborative episode where I’m not interviewing you. You’re not interviewing me? We’re just talking. But I am going to start off by asking you a question that I ask all the guests that come on our show, which is about the parable of the two wolves. And in the parable there’s a grandparent talking with their grandchild, and they say, in life there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops, thinks about it for a second, looks up at their grandparents, says, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed.

Eric Zimmer 00:02:25  So I’d like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.

Kimi Culp 00:02:32  When I hear you say it, and when I read it, it immediately makes me think of inner dialogue and how we speak to ourselves on a daily basis. And then the implications of the ripple effect of that self view into the world, right into anyone and everyone we interact with. So it’s a hugely powerful statement that for me, clicks immediately and goes to that place immediately of how we talk to ourselves about ourselves. And then the next step is the implication that has in the world, for good or for bad.

Eric Zimmer 00:03:06  Yeah, I think that’s a great place to start, which would be sort of examining the way we talk to ourselves and what our thought processes look like. You know, there was for you a fairly fundamental point where you were able to come forward and be open about your mental illness, bipolar disorder. And I guess I’m wondering, did your internal self-talk was that shifted much by that actual moment or that was really just sort of a beginning? And then it’s been, you know, incremental change since then and how you talk to yourself internally.

Kimi Culp 00:03:41  Yeah. Thank you. That’s a great question. And I think the answer is that it did shift specific to my mental health and my narrative around that. I don’t think all the other really mean, horrible voices necessarily changed as a result of the sharing of that piece of information, but it certainly changed and shaped the way I talk to myself about being a woman with a mental illness. So I think I had more distorted, negative, frankly mean things to say about it to myself before sharing. And in the sharing it alleviated, I think, a lot of the shame and negative talk around. It put some light and lightness around it for me for sure.

Eric Zimmer 00:04:28  Yeah, I mean, I know for me, you know, when I started sharing and saying that I was an alcoholic, I would have identified as an addict at that point. It certainly changes a lot of that dialogue, at least for me, because all of a sudden I had a lot of other people saying, yeah, me too.

Eric Zimmer 00:04:44  Yeah. Me too. Yeah. Me too. And that idea that, like lots of other people share this was really powerful. I remember reading the Narcotics Anonymous book, and this was a while before I got sober. It wasn’t like I read this book and suddenly I got sober. But I remember this moment very clearly, and I don’t remember a lot very well. But I was reading the Narcotics Anonymous book, and I remember I just was sobbing through the whole thing because for the first time, I heard people articulating what was going on inside of me, and I was seeing like, oh, this is what I have. Oh, these are the symptoms of it. Oh, other people have felt this. It’s just there’s something about hearing someone else be able to help us articulate our inner world and not be alone. That is so powerful.

Kimi Culp 00:05:31  Yeah. You know, I was thinking about this analogy which I shared lately, this idea of like being in a classroom, which we’ve all been and you have no idea what the f how it’s supposed to work.

Kimi Culp 00:05:45  You don’t get it, you know, you’re just sitting there like, oh, like, I am so freaking confused. And the idea of raising your hand and being afraid of what the people around you are going to think, or what the person in the front of the room is going to think. And asking the question and having like a sea of heads nod and say, me too. I’m confused and like the relief that comes. It’s just this very simple thing of knowing we’re not alone in your recovery with addiction. It sounds like with nah, you said I’m not alone. It’s simple and as complex as that all at once, right?

Eric Zimmer 00:06:22  Yeah. And that obviously unfolds in stages, at least for me. There was the initial like, oh, this is what I have, this is what’s wrong. But then, you know, when I started actually going into treatment and going to meetings, there’s a part of me that was and I think this is common, was looking to find ways I wasn’t like the other people around me, both because maybe I was hoping to be able to talk myself out of needing to be there.

Eric Zimmer 00:06:48  And because, you know, there’s some sense of always wanting to be special in my mind. I always want to be special. I want to be exceptional. And to say I’m just like the rest of you was difficult for me, but very healing.

Kimi Culp 00:07:02  So would you say you didn’t want to identify with them? Like sometimes there’s this not wanting to identify, like I want to prove to myself like, oh no, no, no, it’s it’s not as bad as that guy or that girl. I have found that with people who are publicly living with bipolar disorder, I want to quickly explain to everyone. But that’s not me, that’s not me, I’m not. I don’t have it that bad. So did you find that in your recovery journey and your recovery story, being with, you know, other recovering addicts that you wanted to separate yourself? You said you did. But I guess I’m curious about digging a little deeper as to the why.

Eric Zimmer 00:07:40  Yeah, I think there’s a few factors at work.

Eric Zimmer 00:07:42  I think one is still feeling my way into am I really an alcoholic? Am I really an addict? You know? And in that case, I think anybody who’s paying any attention is smart enough to know this. I’m not saying that I’m particularly smart. The implication is if I’m an addict or an alcoholic. Well, thank you. If I’m an addict or an alcoholic, I can’t ever use again. And that is the not the answer I’m looking for at this juncture in my life. Right. So there’s a part of me that’s a trying to get help, but there’s another part of me that’s trying to go. You don’t really belong here, man.

Kimi Culp 00:08:12  It’s just tonight. Yeah, you.

Eric Zimmer 00:08:13  Can do it. Like, have you thought about doing it this way? You know, so I think the denial inherent in addiction is at work there. I think the other thing is it’s very interesting to watch how we respond when we are thrown into a new group because we are social creatures and we are wired to sense out hierarchy almost immediately.

Eric Zimmer 00:08:36  And I found when I get into a new group situation, I do one of two things. I’ve gotten much better at this, but it still happens sort of automatically, and I have to work with it, which is that I’m either looking around going, I’m better than them, I’m better than them, I’m better than them, or I’m way worse than them. I’m way worse than them. And it doesn’t matter what the criteria is, right? If it’s an addiction, it has to do with addiction. If it’s at a podcast conference, it’s, you know, how many downloads do I have or how many they have. But groups do that to us. And I think that’s one of the reasons that groups can be a particularly potent form of healing is if we recognize that it brings out our insecurity. And now I can watch how I react when I feel insecure. And again, for me, it’s often alternating within the same five minute window. Better than worse and better than worse than. And so I think that was the other element that that had me trying to be different or special.

Kimi Culp 00:09:30  And I think so often when we’re looking outward, whether we’re judging or comparing or, you know, not that bad or whichever end of the spectrum we’re looking at, it’s all just so often a mirror of ourselves, right? Yes. You know, whether we view it as our lacking Or, you know, so often what we desire, right. You see something and yeah. So it is totally fascinating that within groups, I think so much of what we’re observing is just a mirror and reflection of our own inner.

Eric Zimmer 00:10:04  World, 100%, you know, in the spiritual habits programs that we do, we do a lot of group work. And I find it a really good opportunity to say what you and I just said to people ahead of time, like, watch what’s going to happen as you end up in this group because it is a great reflection of your inner state and just see how you can notice it and be kind to yourself. Don’t be judgmental that you’re doing that because every human on the planet does it, but notice it and then notice is there a different way you can maybe respond, you know, can you respond in a way that is kinder to yourself or is kinder to the people around you? You know, I think seeing it can be really powerful.

Kimi Culp 00:10:43  Yeah, yeah. So, you know, when we were talking earlier, we were talking about identifying the good and the bad of labels. They can be of value and helpful. I think there’s times when they can be harmful for different reasons. So you and I both, I think, started our podcast driven by clearly our own personal stories and journeys. So I was curious in recovery and you mentioned, you know, alcoholism and addiction all these years later because how long have you been sober?

Eric Zimmer 00:11:20  15 years of continuous sobriety this time. And I had eight years right before that. So, you know, 23 years more or less most of my adult life. Yeah.

Kimi Culp 00:11:30  So most of your adult life and how much do you personally identify with those labels?

Eric Zimmer 00:11:37  Yeah, that’s been a journey that has been unfolding. But I identify as an alcoholic. Yeah. And an addict. Now, whether I would put ex alcoholic or ex adic in front of it, I don’t know, I just don’t. You know, I came up in 12 step traditions and 12 step traditions.

Eric Zimmer 00:11:54  That’s just what you know. Hi, I’m Eric, I’m an alcoholic. Right? Yeah. or. Hi, I’m Eric, I’m an addict. So on a broad sense, I identify with those terms still. And to me, what they mean is I can’t drink or use drugs safely, so it’s.

Kimi Culp 00:12:07  Almost a reminder of that past.

Eric Zimmer 00:12:09  Self. Yeah, it’s a reminder just that those things have not worked out for me historically, and that it’s not a good idea now where I ran into a problem in 12 step programs, and is one of the things that led me to be much less involved than I used to be, is that oftentimes that term alcoholic or addict ends up getting a lot of other stuff thrown on top of it that it means. And, you know, it means we’re different than most people. It means that we are particularly damaged in some way. It means that we have bad character. I mean, there’s a lot of different things, even within a supportive movement like that, that different groups layer onto that.

Eric Zimmer 00:12:49  And that is what I sort of really lost a sense of because I went, you know what the difference between, say, me and you is? Maybe you can have a couple drinks successfully and I can’t. Right. Yeah. But beyond that, we’re probably very much similar in a thousand different ways. Right. And I so I, I stopped seeing myself as being different than other people. You know, like the world as a whole, humans as a whole. But I did see myself as different in that regard, almost like, well, you know, if I had a peanut allergy, I can’t eat peanuts. Now, that is an analogy that is a little bit simplistic, but it gets to the heart of it for me.

Kimi Culp 00:13:29  As you’re sharing that, I’m thinking that it’s really about the labels and the associations that society and culture that we collectively have put around things, because I guess where I was getting at with that question, and it’s something I’ve thought about in myself is there’s owning the truth of who you are, right? Even the aspects, and perhaps most importantly, the aspects that you may have had shame and secrecy around.

Kimi Culp 00:13:57  But then for me, it has been and and that’s why I was curious to hear from you, sort of a journey to not have that be the entirety of my identity. Yeah. I give it so much power. Yet there’s like everybody in the world, you and every human being were layered, were dynamic, were lots of things. And going back to what we feed, I feel like I was so caught up on the pieces of myself, my body, my being, my chemistry that I deemed damaged versus the other pieces that, you know, are often thriving or really working well. And that’s just interesting to me, I guess. Yeah.

Eric Zimmer 00:14:39  And I think there’s a natural healing journey that happens. Right. So when I went into treatment and recovery from addiction, or when you were newly diagnosed as bipolar, right. There is a moment where that identity takes a little bit more of a prominent center stage role, and it’s appropriate that it does. Right? For a couple of different reasons.

Eric Zimmer 00:15:01  A for me, I was dying and I needed to really give that identity a lot of attention and care and love. It’s also that at that moment, given where addiction took me, I wasn’t much else anymore, right? I was a homeless heroin addict that was spending my time either doing drugs or stealing to get drugs. I mean, there wasn’t much else to identify with at that point, right? But as I naturally got better and as I got healthier and as my life expanded, there was more and more and more and more of me to identify with. And that idea of myself as an addict took on less and less and less and less area of importance, to the point that the only reason I think it’s particularly important to me now is just simply to remember. Don’t do that again, because I’ve tried it again after being sober and it didn’t work. So that’s the reminder to me, is, you know, don’t do that. It’s destructive for you. But that’s about all there is to it at this point.

Eric Zimmer 00:15:58  Now, you and I talked a little bit, and I think I’d love to hear some of your thoughts on this. Also. You know, we talked about depression, and I think that’s one that there’s even a more nuanced one for me and one that I’m more in the middle of sorting out than I am alcoholic, erratic. But first, I’d love to kind of hear what you think about how your identity or label as someone who has bipolar has shifted over time for you.

Kimi Culp 00:16:23  Well, I’ll answer that. But first, thank you for that answer, for myself and for everyone listening, because I think it’s a really good one, that what I heard you say is the more healing and attention that time desperately needed healing and attention for you, the more important it was to focus on that piece of your identity, and that over time, as you grew in all these other unhealed, which was like what led me to my question all these years later, how do you identify? And I think that’s beautifully put, that there was a reason for the strong identity and association.

Kimi Culp 00:16:55  And with time and healing that sort of dissipates, yet it still lives within you, right? It’s still part of your story. So yeah, we talked about depression, and I know you said you had a hard time sometimes identifying or explaining yourself, articulating that process for you and that emotion and feeling and way of being for you, I guess, would probably be the right description. So, I mean, my experience with depression, I have lived with a lot more hypomania and anxiety being very ever present versus periods of, you know, some people with bipolar, including people in my family, go through really incredibly painful Depressive states to watch and witness, and I have had a few in my life that have been crippling, but I feel much more so. It’s a battle and a dance with low grade depression. So it’s not I’m not functioning, I can’t get out of which I think probably a lot of people can relate to. It is this dark heaviness for what feels like no reason based on the circumstances of your life.

Kimi Culp 00:18:11  And, you know, sad seems like such a wimpy word to describe it, but it’s hard to articulate what it feels like. And as I’ve often said, and I’m sure this is something you can relate to, I tend to layer shame upon that, because I feel like I have a pretty good life, right? I have meaningful relationships. I have work and family that I love. So yeah, it’s hard to explain other than you’re in emotional pain and it’s really tricky and hard to get out of.

Eric Zimmer 00:18:43  That describes my experience with depression. I had depression earlier in life where it felt debilitating at points. This is post getting sober, but over the years it has become as you would say. I would describe it much more as a low grade thing. And what I often wonder about is, is it depression? Is it just part of the way my personality and my mind and I work? Am I just melancholic? Right? That’s what they would have described. You know, some people have a melancholic temperament.

Eric Zimmer 00:19:17  They say, I think that’s me. And so where I have been, you know, over the last number of years, is trying to balance using a word like I have depression, balance, the benefit of using a label like that versus the downside. So the benefit to it is to say, this thing happens to me, I know that it happens. Here’s the ways that I know how to treat it. Here’s how I can work with it. I can be kinder to myself. Perhaps when it’s happening, I cannot make a big deal out of it. The world seems like it doesn’t mean anything today, but that’s just not because the world doesn’t mean anything. It’s just because that’s how you get time to time. And so relax. Like, that’s enormously helpful, right? The counter that I’ve started to really look at is by calling it depression. Am I taking some sort of normal range of human functioning? Yeah. Am I labeling it in a way that either causes it to amplify or stick around, or am I feeding it in some way by giving myself that diagnosis? And I don’t know the answer.

Eric Zimmer 00:20:19  Like I said, I’m still kind of working with it, and it’s not a hugely important question for me right now, because I think I hold it very lightly. Yeah, but it’s just little things. Like lately I’ve really been this is probably the last year I’ve really been exploring the idea of am I depressed or am I just tired? Yeah, because you know what? For me, they feel very, very similar. But tired is just. I’m tired. Go to bed, Eric. Depressed is a bigger problem, right? It causes a little bit more like. Well, I need to do something about that. Right? Where? As tired, you just go and just go to bed. And so again, that’s where depression has been more of a nuanced element of that diagnosis. And, you know, do I still have it? Do I not have it? How do I talk about it? What are the ways to engage with that label that give me the benefit of having a label, but minimize the downsides of having a label, which is that we start to live sometimes into our expectations.

Kimi Culp 00:21:14  Yeah. It’s hard, you know, it’s you’re talking about depression and how it presents and shows up for you. I was thinking that for me, always an indicator is I feel incredibly empty and lonely. And when I know that it’s depression is that I feel incredibly empty and lonely, well, in connection with other people. So I can be in a room with people that I love, that light me up and that connection is not firing. Right? I’m sitting there and it and so it is hard that distinction between there are days for everyone on the planet where it’s hard to be a frickin human and the outlook is depressing, or you’re feeling melancholy and it’s nuanced, right? But it can be helpful to give language to anything, right? To just simply state, at least I know what this is. Right? But, you know, and it’s interesting. I’m a mom of young kids, and often people are, you know, with the world tells them they are certainly in the parental, you know, if you’re constantly saying, you know, well, you’re the athletic one or you’re.

Kimi Culp 00:22:33  So I think how we identify in the labels we continually give ourselves. It is a delicate dance, right? So it’s times when it’s helpful, as you can say, I don’t need to judge myself because I understand that this is depression and this is what it looks like and how it presents and shows up for me, but not over identifying like anything. I think, you know, there’s two ways to look at it.

Eric Zimmer 00:23:20  So how do you work with, you know, a diagnosis of bipolar to again, balance the positive aspects of it being a diagnosis, a label. Or do you see any negative sides to that identity? How do you work with this question of identity and your diagnosis?

Kimi Culp 00:23:37  So it’s funny because the thing I didn’t talk about forever, I now feel like I talk about all the time. I write about it, I talk about it, and I’m like, God, is she going to talk about, you know, living with bipolar again? But I still, to be honest, I have a lot of issues around it, for lack of a better word.

Kimi Culp 00:23:53  So part of me, like I said, liberating. I have a kinder, gentler narrative around quote unquote, being mentally ill or living with a mental illness is the nicer, kinder way to describe it. But at the same time, like I said, I often want to distance myself to protect myself. For people judging me as crazy or unhinged, you know, I can’t control how the world experiences that label and that diagnosis. And when I’m openly, you know, putting it on myself, it feels a little out of control and scary and vulnerable still, and I find myself trying to associate with, like, historical figures in a positive light. You know, I mean, it’s really funny. I’m like, have you read that Winston Churchill may have been bipolar? And then I’ll quickly jump to somebody who is, you know, publicly going through something, you know, very exaggerated and particularly maybe harmful and embarrassing and say, oh no, no, no, but that’s not me. Yeah. So I still have a ton of insecurities and I’m still tripped up by it.

Kimi Culp 00:25:04  Yet I get that when I was diagnosed, if I saw somebody, an older woman living a life that felt meaningful and right, rich in many ways, who said, I have this thing and I’ve learned how to manage it and live with it. That would have been hugely valuable and hopeful to me. So it’s like I’m walking that tight rope, because I think that’s probably worth it.

Eric Zimmer 00:25:34  Absolutely. I’ve always tried to on the side of being more open about addiction, about depression, again, appropriate. If I have to on one side or the other, it’s to be more open. And it’s largely because I know how valuable it is for me to have heard other people talk about that stuff. So in my professional career before I did this, I was in the software development industry for a lot of years, and I was fairly open about those things there. And again, appropriate. I didn’t waltz into every meeting, but like, you know, I used to be a heroin addict, you know? but what was interesting was that over time, I started to find that two things happened.

Eric Zimmer 00:26:15  One was over the years, different people would come up to me, often much later and be like, hey, Eric, my brother’s really struggling with addiction, you know, what should I do? Or. Yeah, I’ve been dealing with depression. What did you do? So, you know, some of that, which really helps others. But then I also sort of found it was in some ways a professional superpower. And what I mean by that was so much of the work I did was about getting people to work well together and build good teams. And just how does everybody come together? And that level of open sharing often leads to people trusting you. Yeah. I’m not saying I ever did it for a professional advantage. That is not what I’m saying. And that’s probably a bad way to approach it. But that it did turn out to not only be good for others, but I think in general was good for me in precisely the place I was most afraid that sharing it would be right.

Eric Zimmer 00:27:12  I thought that it would be a liability, and it didn’t seem to be. And then, of course, in general, for me, it was just good to not be carrying secrets, to just be able to be who I really am.

Kimi Culp 00:27:23  Now more than ever. People just want people to be real. Yeah. And when you’re in a conversation or you meet somebody new in the first time, they share some piece of themselves that is real or raw, or has some depth or weight to it. You know, there’s a connection to it. You’re like, oh, we had this moment. And so this act, which you’re talking about in a more public setting, like in work, which first of all, nobody with a voice like yours should be a software developer. You need to be in front of a microphone.

Eric Zimmer 00:27:54  So. Well, it took me a lot of years, but here we are. Thank you.

Kimi Culp 00:27:58  It’s a really powerful place of human connection. And, you know, now we know there’s research and science around it.

Kimi Culp 00:28:06  But I do think it’s a little bit superpower. There’s some magic to it. Yeah I have seen it for sure. Even in just sharing this podcast and being so open. I often see people and I don’t know how to explain it, other than the way that they interact with me is almost like as if we’re closer than Then reflective of the time we’ve spent together. But I think it’s because they trust me, right? They feel like, oh, yeah, Kimmy tells me everything she trusts. I don’t know if you’ve had that experience, have you?

Eric Zimmer 00:28:39  Oh, yeah. Yeah. And there’s a lot of studies out there. I’ve looked a lot into building friendships as adults because loneliness is a real problem in our world. And, you know, throughout my years of coaching people, I’ve just come across a good number of people who are kind of isolated. And so I’ve looked into how do you build friends as an adult? And there’s a lot of research out there that seems to show that to build friendships as adults, it takes a lot of hours of time together.

Eric Zimmer 00:29:05  It’s why you often become close with people at work. You just have the requisite amount of time, so it takes a lot of time. But I have also found that in certain circumstances that time can be greatly reduced. And it does tend to be when people are coming together around a shared human vulnerability. Yeah, yeah. You know, I made friends with people in 12 step programs way faster than I would outside of them. In our spiritual habits programs, often people come together much more quickly because they’re they’re really sharing from the heart. Now, again, this does not mean like show up to your local food bank and tell everybody you have bipolar and hope to make new friends, right? Like there’s a nuance to this, but there is something to be said for in general that we can form closer connections when we are being fully, authentically ourselves and when we’re connecting around. I guess I’ll just use the word vulnerability. I feel like it’s an overused word. Maybe these days we’re sharing around a vulnerability or a common issue.

Eric Zimmer 00:30:08  It can really accelerate the process of getting close to people.

Kimi Culp 00:30:12  I love that you brought up adult friendships because I think they’re so invaluable. They’re so important, and it does take time and shared experience and nurturing and an effort which can be hard, right? Whether you’re dealing with life and how much time you have, or whether you’re dealing with depression and like it feels hard enough to freaking get in the shower. Like, do I really have time to call this person planet? So yeah, I’m curious if there’s anything else, you know, poignant or, you know, interesting or powerful that you’ve learned around adult friendships?

Eric Zimmer 00:30:51  Well, I mean, I think there’s a few things I’m also.

Kimi Culp 00:30:54  Curious about male friendships because I think it’s so different for men.

Eric Zimmer 00:30:58  well, I am very blessed. I don’t have a lot of friends, but I have a good number of very close friends that I have had for a long time. You know, I started this podcast partially because my best friend Chris and I weren’t spending much time together, and he’s an audio engineer.

Eric Zimmer 00:31:15  And so one of my primary motivations was, I’ll start this podcast and we’ll have to do something together, and I’ll see him much more, which turned out to absolutely be a stroke of genius because it has happened deeply. We are. Is he still the engineer? Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Kimi Culp 00:31:30  That’s awesome.

Eric Zimmer 00:31:32  He’s listening right now. Hi, Chris.

Kimi Culp 00:31:35  Hi, Chris. Chris, what can you tell us about friendship?

Eric Zimmer 00:31:39  Oh, Chris could tell you a lot. He’s a savant of friendships. Actually, Chris and I did a episode. It’s our 500th episode. We were interviewed by my partner Jenny, who also sometimes does interviews on the show. She interviewed Chris and I all about what friendship is, which was really great because it was so fun to reflect on, you know, 35 years of friendship with somebody.

Kimi Culp 00:32:02  So it’s so funny you brought that up because you’re not going to necessarily have this experience because of Chris. But when people have asked about podcasting and there’s so many things that I love, the creative process, the people that I meet.

Kimi Culp 00:32:17  But I often described it as very lonely, and I felt isolated because I realized how much I value collaboration that I loved working in particular with really smart, creative people, and everything I had done leading up to podcasting was in some level of collaboration or partnership, and that that energy fed me and I felt I was better as a result. Like literally, I feel more energetic when I’m sitting at a table brainstorming with other. It was a silo. And, you know, often I’m in a closet, like sweating, recording. And so during Covid, my friend Christy who people who listen to this podcast, it reminds me of you and Chris. I reached out and she has a degree in positive psychology. And I said, we tell these really incredible stories, but I’d love our listeners to be able to take action upon that inspiration. Do you want to start exploring whether we can work together? So I feel like we’re still trying to figure that out. But the reason every time we talk about like, is it working? Is it not working, should we be doing this? We’re like, but we talk so much.

Kimi Culp 00:33:21  I mean, the fact is it Yeah, it reconnected us. And this is my childhood best friend. We would go six months without talking, and now we talk and we are on Voxer. And for both of us, being somewhat perfectionist, we hold it so loosely, like the product itself, like whether it works, whether it’s quote unquote good enough because we get to be friends and we get to collaborate and we get to talk about meaningful things, and we have a date on the calendar. And so it’s been so, like personally enriching, and it’s made the podcast a lot less lonely for me. So I’m glad you have, Chris, and I’m glad I’ve had Christie these past two years.

Eric Zimmer 00:33:57  Indeed. And I think we’ve identified a pattern that I would not have identified before about adult friendship, which is perhaps, you know, one way to do it is to have something that you do together. Yeah. You know, a project, you know, one way that we know adult friendships happen is through volunteering, but only through a particular type of volunteering.

Eric Zimmer 00:34:21  And it’s the type of volunteering that occurs over and over and over and over again. So a lot of times we will make a volunteer commitment. I’ll go to the food bank this week and volunteer, and maybe I’ll make some friends. Right. And we go and we volunteer and we don’t make any friends and we go, well, that didn’t work right. Versus a commitment that said, all right, I’m going to go to every Wednesday to the food bank for the next three months. That gives you a really good opportunity to build a friendship, because you’re going to see the same people over and over. I mean, I probably won’t look you in the eye till our third or fourth meeting, right? Like I’m a shy person. Yeah. You know, throw me into a group of people I don’t know. And it takes me a little while before I sort of really kind of come out of my shell, unless it’s in a state where I’m like the host of the thing. But again, throw me in any random soup kitchen on a Wednesday night with a bunch of people who know each other and you don’t know me, it’ll be 3 or 4 weeks before I start to really be able to be myself.

Eric Zimmer 00:35:20  It just takes me a while. And I think a lot of us are that way. So volunteering is a great way to make friendships, but we want to make sure that the type of volunteering we do is set up so that we have many, many exposures to people over time instead of like, oh, I volunteered to run registration at this five K, like that’s great, but you’re not probably going to walk away from that experience with a new friend. I mean, you might, but knowing what we know, it takes time.

Kimi Culp 00:35:47  Yeah. And I think I don’t know that working out would be the good or bad analogy. But, you know, if you go to the gym once or twice versus every Tuesday and Thursday after. But I do think those friendships, whether it’s you and I have created it through these podcasts, right? There’s a point of connection that’s on the calendar. But I’ve often found in the past when my friendships have been really strong, there is some sort of anchoring piece, like I used to have a friend, and every Friday morning we walk.

Kimi Culp 00:36:15  Yeah. Like it just we were set up for connection and success because we had woven each other into that. So yeah, whether it’s every Sunday night you go to the same Chinese restaurant or, you know, that repetition. Yeah. Being proactive and intentional about I need to feel like I have more deep and meaningful friendships. And this is a path to that, right? Yeah. And finding a shared experience that both people enjoy.

Eric Zimmer 00:36:43  And you just hit on a really important behavioral principle. Like I work a lot on, you know, how do we change our behaviors. And the general behavioral principle is separate decision from action, meaning whatever it is you want to do, you’ve got to plan ahead for it and set it up. But what you gave was a particularly great example where you basically make a decision every Friday. This happens. So I don’t have to keep redesigning when I’m going to see Chris. Yeah, it’s every Friday now. Of course not every Friday happens. I’m traveling. We don’t do it.

Eric Zimmer 00:37:11  Yeah, but the rule is work together. Yeah. Instead of us having to figure out when we’re going to get together over and over. Right now, we only have to figure out when we won’t get together, right? So it’s structured in such a way that it’s more likely to happen. And so much of behavior in life does come down to environment and structure. And so that’s a really smart way to structure that friendship element.

Kimi Culp 00:38:01  All right. So I love that I’m going to shift us now from a Friday coffee date with Chris to comparative suffering.

Eric Zimmer 00:38:11  Chris’s life is way worse than mine.

Kimi Culp 00:38:13  That let’s just compare ourselves to Chris, and we’re going to feel so much better about ourselves.

Eric Zimmer 00:38:18  99 out of 100 people are going to pick my life over Christmas. So, you know, let’s just. I’m sorry, Chris.

Kimi Culp 00:38:25  We love you, Chris. We do. So you and I were both clearly drawn to some extent to understanding and being curious about suffering and and what that looks like for people.

Kimi Culp 00:38:37  I certainly become very aware, if you go back and look at the history of people I’ve interviewed, that certainly. indicative, yes. But this notion of comparative suffering is something that I have learned through the podcast and particular an interview I did with Doctor Edith Yeager. Have you had her on your podcast?

Eric Zimmer 00:38:55  I have.

Kimi Culp 00:38:56  Yes. I mean, wow, I don’t know if you were as obsessed as I am, but you.

Eric Zimmer 00:39:01  Know what amazed me about her? I mean, she’s a very old woman. Yes. Right. And so we’d be talking and I’d ask her a question and she’d start to answer, and she would just kind of wander off. Yeah. Mentally. And I thought, well, she’s just lost the thread. She’s an old lady. She’s so she’s wandering around sort of doing this, and then she just comes right back around and totally sticks the landing. I’m like, she was with me the entire time. I just couldn’t follow her.

Kimi Culp 00:39:26  Wow. Yeah, I had the same experience.

Kimi Culp 00:39:30  And I’m thinking like, okay, what is like the tech check situation going to be having a 94 year old guest? Like, I was just not convinced that it was going to be smooth, you know, getting on and the mic checks and audio. Granted, she has really incredible people who work with her. Yeah, but I mean, she is significantly more savvy than, you know, 40 year olds. I know. I mean, she’s pretty darn impressive. For those of you who have not listened, I hope you will listen to Eric’s interview or my interview or both with Doctor Eddie Iger. Doctor Eddie, who is a 94 year old Holocaust survivor who published her first memoir at 90. But a big thing she talks about, and she really introduced me to is this notion of comparative suffering. And it’s been really interesting for me in particular, because the story’s on my podcast, all the wiser are so often unthinkable, harrowing, you know? So people will say, oh, thank you so much for your podcast.

Kimi Culp 00:40:34  It’s really put it in perspective. Like, I shouldn’t be that upset that my husband left me and I’m going through a divorce. Well, what Doctor Eady would say is you should. Absolutely. Your pain is real. Your suffering has nothing to do with the fact that the Holocaust happened and I suffered. And so she’s really into that. That is not the point. Or that it’s helpful to anyone, right, when we compare our suffering, but instead to honor it, regardless of what that suffering looks like. Because it’s all real, right? And there isn’t healing or a path forward without that first step of just honoring that your thing is is really hard and that you’re in it. And so as somebody who endured the greatest hell on earth, right, can you imagine something that is more steep and the deepest of suffering? And she’s giving permission and validating everyone around her that their pain is real and it deserves to be seen, and it deserves to be heard, and they deserve to honor it so they can move through it.

Kimi Culp 00:41:41  I just thought was really beautiful of her, and illuminating and helpful for me to understand what comparative suffering is.

Eric Zimmer 00:41:49  Yeah, that’s a pretty remarkable thing coming from her. To me, this is a little bit like the concept of labels and identity, meaning that there’s a fair amount of nuance in the conversation, and there’s a fair amount of you can use these things in helpful or harmful ways. And so the harmful way that comparative suffering shows up is I go, Yes, my wife left me, but I’m not in Ukraine. So Eric, quit being a little baby and get over it. Yeah, right. That’s using comparative suffering in a really damaging way. And I won’t heal from that divorce. Yeah, right. And I will perpetuate that pain on down throughout the world. Right. That’s the negative use of it. I do think there is a place for perspective, but again, it’s nuanced for perspective. Exactly. There is a place to say, you know what, I do have a lot of great things in my life.

Eric Zimmer 00:42:46  You know, I do have a lot of benefit. And so the way I look at this and maybe we’re sort of strain out of comparative suffering, but this is how I sort of think about it, is that my goal is not to eliminate, despite the parable of the Wolves, my goal is not to eliminate either the positive or the negative from my life. Right? It’s to say if there are bad things happening, acknowledge them, work with them, heal them, but don’t lose sight of the fact that there’s also lots and lots of blessings. Both those things can be true at the same time, and sort of like when I said, you know, early on for me, in addiction, the focus really had to be on me as an addict and healing that, because that’s what was present. When we’re in the midst of a great deal of suffering, I think the right orientation generally is tend to your pain, work with it, heal it. Don’t keep trying to minimize it away by saying, oh, well, I’ve got all these other good things.

Eric Zimmer 00:43:43  And not to get stuck in that right, because I can get stuck in a place where nothing is good enough, no matter what I do.

Kimi Culp 00:43:50  I could not agree more. And it’s this notion of both and right that the both things are incredibly true and incredibly powerful. And so you’re not minimizing your pain and suffering or anyone else’s.

Eric Zimmer 00:44:05  That’s right.

Kimi Culp 00:44:06  Yes. and also again, cliche. Try and be careful when I say, oh my gosh, this word is overused or this cliche, because I do try and remind myself that probably not everyone is as immersed as we are in this particular content, right? It’s like we’re drawn to this work. But so what I heard you say is when you said, you know, there’s this other piece that is helpful. What it made me think of is the gratitude is where I’m getting at, where it’s saying, this is gratitude practice. You may have heard it. You may be like, whatever, I know I’m supposed to be thankful, man, is that a powerful tool? Yeah, it works for me.

Kimi Culp 00:44:45  And like, again, going back to this depressive, low grade depression, feelings of emptiness or loneliness if I actively do it. And not just one thing, but why I am grateful for my husband being present with my daughter so I could, you know, just getting really specific in your gratitude. Yes, that for me was a big jump just from writing down a thing, but then understanding why it had a deeply positive impact and just some of the minutia, the small stuff, not just like the friendly checkout person, but like I was in a really bad mood and she smiled at me and it made just writing it down. And like the gratitude, it works. It really works. And so maybe that’s I’m just reflecting back to you what I heard you say, which is honor the suffering, but also kind of looking around and being grateful for what’s working, even if that’s just really small stuff, and diving into fully understanding the large impact of those things that seem small.

Eric Zimmer 00:45:51  Yeah, I could go deep down a gratitude rabbit hole, which I’m not sure we want to do just yet.

Eric Zimmer 00:45:56  I just taught a weekend workshop at Omega Institute in New York, and there were two topics hope and gratitude. And Doctor Eger made an appearance. Not in person. I mean, I use some of her words as a teaching point, so I don’t want to go too far down that rabbit hole just yet. Let’s come back to comparative suffering and maybe talk about how does it show up in your life. What are the ways that comparative suffering shows up in the unhealthy way that we’ve talked about it being?

Kimi Culp 00:46:21  I’m not a person who I feel like minimizes other people’s suffering a lot. Even my kids like I, I know some people will be like, well, that’s dumb. It’s, you know, 12 year old girl stuff. Like, I don’t think that I minimize other people’s suffering. I think I have a lot of empathy and compassion around mostly all suffering. It shows up for me personally and feeling shame around my suffering that it is not enough or it is somehow wrong. Like what’s wrong with you? You have so much.

Kimi Culp 00:46:54  You have so much privilege. Like what the f are you seriously like trying to say that you’re suffering? Really? So I think that I compare my I own pain and suffering and feel ashamed of having it in comparison to other people’s suffering. That mine doesn’t feel particularly valid, if that makes sense.

Eric Zimmer 00:47:19  Yeah, so you honor it in other people and tend to think you shouldn’t have it as you were just talking. I thought about the extremes of human experience are often helpful teaching tools. Right. That’s some of what you’re doing on your show, right? You are bringing in extremes of human experience for what they have to teach all of us and Holocaust survivors like Doctor Eger or Elie Wiesel or Viktor Frankl. They’re inspiring because it’s such an extreme thing. And then thought of another extreme example that shows sort of the comparative suffering element. And it is really rich and famous and successful people who kill themselves. Yeah, right. Like, you know, Robin Williams came to mind. Right. And he’s a little bit more complex because of some of the brain injury stuff he might have been having.

Eric Zimmer 00:48:04  But the point being, we can know that everybody’s suffering is equal, because we can take somebody who has all the privilege in the world at that point, all the money, all the fame, and they suffer so badly they kill themselves, right?

Kimi Culp 00:48:16  Look at Anthony Bourdain. You look at Kate Spade. I mean.

Eric Zimmer 00:48:19  Yes, I read a statistic recently and I don’t know if it’s true, but let’s pretend it’s directionally true because I’m sure it’s in the neighborhood of being true. The more wealthy and safe and prosperous your zip code is, the more likely you are to kill yourself.

Kimi Culp 00:48:34  Yeah, that doesn’t surprise me.

Eric Zimmer 00:48:35  That’s startling. You know, I mean, it does speak to that all types of suffering are really real and meaningful.

Kimi Culp 00:48:43  Do they say why? Or is there any sort of clarity?

Eric Zimmer 00:48:46  No.

Eric Zimmer 00:48:46  I think that there’s a variety. I don’t think anybody fully knows. Right. In the same way that we don’t fully know. Like, why does it appear that depression and anxiety rates are going up so much? Is it that really depression and anxiety is going up? Is it that we report it better? Is there something about the modern Western ways of living.

Eric Zimmer 00:49:06  I think everybody’s got theories on it, right? I mean, my theory tends to be like the great song by the band Dawes is that it’s a little bit of everything, you know, it’s a little bit of everything.

Kimi Culp 00:49:17  That seems like a really good explanation, a true one, a little bit of everything.

Eric Zimmer 00:49:21  Yeah, but.

Eric Zimmer 00:49:22  Comparative suffering may have a role, and now I’m firmly in speculation. I always like to be clear when I’m just making things up. So now I’m just making something up or speculating, which would be, I wonder if in the wealthier zip codes, the comparative suffering issue manifests in that there is an element of that extra layer of shame that you talked about, which is like, I’m doing so well, I am fortunate, I am lucky, and yet I still feel so miserable. I must really be broken.

Kimi Culp 00:49:52  Well, I mean, it’s a larger issue, right, with stigma and what we have said historically about mental illness and like pull yourself up by your boot, you know, get over it and not treating it what it is.

Kimi Culp 00:50:06  Right, which is brain health like regardless of where you are socioeconomically or where you’re living, if you have cancer, you have cancer, right? And so I think with mental health, the fact that somehow there is shame, right? I shouldn’t be feeling this way. And as we know, shame leads to getting help and treatment, and it leads to the help that comes from healing and connecting with people around you by virtue of sharing. Because you don’t share when you’re ashamed. Yeah. So when you say it’s a little bit of this and that, it makes sense to me. And, you know, a lot of these illnesses like bipolar, frankly, can be a very fatal illness. People die from it. Yes. You know, commonly, but because it’s a mental illness, it’s trickier for sure.

Eric Zimmer 00:50:56  I guess maybe the message would be, if you’re suffering, really suffering, get some help. Find ways to not suffer alone so much, because I think that’s a big part of both you and I.

Eric Zimmer 00:51:07  Story is, let’s end the secrecy, let’s end the shame, and let’s, you know, move into communion with others around these things.

Kimi Culp 00:51:16  Amen, brother.

Eric Zimmer 00:51:18  Amen.

Eric Zimmer 00:51:19  So we’re nearly out of time. And there are many weighty topics that we could talk about. We could talk about them all day. And we have been. But I would be completely remiss in my duties to my own heart, if I did not bring up a book or a series of books that you have been a participant of, called A Letter to My Dog. My dogs are so incredibly healing to me. I think I learned how to love much better from a dog named Sadie. Tell me a little bit about that book and why you did that.

Kimi Culp 00:51:52  Yeah. So my maiden name is Davidson and I grew up with a dog named Harley Harley Davidson, so I did not have a dog when I did a letter to my dog, I.

Eric Zimmer 00:52:03  Had.

Kimi Culp 00:52:04  Just left working for Oprah Winfrey for the show and then for the network.

Kimi Culp 00:52:09  There is a huge amount of dog lovers in that world, and I had worked on a personal project for her for the 25th anniversary of her show. It was a book on my way out, you know, going to my next chapter. I was at a big dinner, and this really accomplished photographer who’s also in particular known for her photographs of animals and dogs, is at the table. A book publishers at the table, one of my bosses, who’s a huge dog person, and I was a producer like I oversaw and executed and we, you know, breaking bread, drinking wine. I was like, we should do a book about dogs. And we’re like, how could it be different? We’re like, what if people wrote letters to their dogs and was called? And I was like, we could get kindergarten classes and we could launch a blog and we could get famous people. So that’s what we did. We spent three years and it was like we poured our hearts into this. We had competitions in schools.

Kimi Culp 00:53:09  We had Tony Bennett writing letters, and Robin traveled around the country photographing the dogs, and I was in charge of finding all the letters in the stories. And we published this book, A letter to My dog. And, you know, it’s in Paper Source and Anthropologie. And we went to Costco and did book signings. And we would like be next to the guy with the hot dogs, and everyone would want the free food and not our book. And it was a total journey. But now I do have a dog who I love madly. Waffles, is our dog and.

Eric Zimmer 00:53:41  It’s a great dog name.

Kimi Culp 00:53:42  Yes. Thank you. Waffles. The next thing I’m going to say is not a joke, but waffles is currently filming a music video with Beyoncé.

Eric Zimmer 00:53:52  You’re. You’re serious?

Kimi Culp 00:53:53  I’m 100% serious. And so we already know I’m a little crazy. But just so you know, I’m not a doggie agent, mom. Our dog walker works on sets, training animals on sets, and asked if waffles could participate in that.

Kimi Culp 00:54:08  She needed a dog, but it ends up it’s with Beyonce. So he’s been with Beyonce for the past week.

Eric Zimmer 00:54:15  That is absolutely incredible. I am so glad I chose to go down this line of thinking. Does it bother you that you’ve been spending, you know, your entire adult life in the entertainment industry, and waffles in his young career is already far more famous than you?

Kimi Culp 00:54:32  Well, we were dying laughing because he’s been dropped off a couple of times in between, you know, hanging out with Bey. And I was like saying, like, I’m like, he has so much information and he can’t tell us. I’m like, is she good to her people? Like, was Jay there? Like, what was she wearing?

Eric Zimmer 00:54:52  Like, spill it. Waffles.

Eric Zimmer 00:54:53  Spill it.

Kimi Culp 00:54:54  And I’m just looking at him. I’m like, you were just with Beyonce and you can’t give me any information. Yes. So a little bit of a tangent, but hopefully an entertaining one. literally. And the healing power of dogs and the joy factor.

Kimi Culp 00:55:13  I feel like bringing a dog into our lives sparks so much joy and silliness and spontaneity that just.

Eric Zimmer 00:55:21  Would.

Kimi Culp 00:55:22  Not exist. I think it’s been great for relationships because walking the dog, sometimes when we can get two of the people, it’s helped us be closer with one another in that way. And waffles is the point of connection. And, you know, I think I told you this, my one daughter, probably a lot like me, is is pretty sensitive to the world. And it is if he knows, like before I see it, maybe even before she feels it, we’ll go and just crawl up and love on her, because it’s like he consents that she’s going to need comforting. They’re really, really powerful beings. And so yeah, I’m so glad you brought it up. And and I am curious about your dog. You mentioned that he can’t walk on his back legs, and I heard you talking to him off mic and just the sweetest, most tender voice. So yeah, I’d love to hear from you.

Eric Zimmer 00:56:16  Yeah. It’s beans. It’s a girl. She’s an old Boston terrier, and I think we are probably within a few weeks of her time. Her time coming.

Eric Zimmer 00:56:27  So sorry.

Eric Zimmer 00:56:27  Yeah, yeah. It’s tough. Talk about silliness and joy. I mean, she is just a clown and she has been a clown for 13 years. But, yeah, she’s got a degenerative disorder in her back legs. And they’ve just been, you know, slowly failing and failing. And she’s just not doing good. So yeah, it’s a little bit sad. But you know, the thing with a dog I have found is there’s a simplicity to a relationship with a dog. Right? The simplicity of love, the simplicity of joy. And even when they go, there’s a simplicity of grief. Yeah, interesting. And what I mean by that is, like, I had two previous dogs in my adult life, and they both passed and they passed within like nine months of each other. And the second one, Ralph, went early.

Eric Zimmer 00:57:11  He went from cancer, you know, and there was a part of me that started to go like, well, it’s not fair. Yeah. You know, I just lost Sadie and Ralph’s young, and but I just realized, like, well, animals get sick, they get old, they pass, you know? So I didn’t have a quarrel with the universe. And by not having a quarrel with the universe over it, I was able just to fully grieve it. It was just this absolutely clean, searing, extraordinarily painful and powerful grief. But it just felt so simple and elemental. I would only hurt that much because I had loved something that much, you know, like what a gift to have had. Something that meant that much to me for that long. Like what a gift. And again, this isn’t to minimize the grief. I felt all the grief, but in it I recognized a great love. So there was something really spiritual in that to me, in the way that I use the word spiritual, not other worldly, but deeply meaningful.

Eric Zimmer 00:58:09  And so with beans, I mean, I’m, you know, same sort of thing. Like, I feel like I’m carrying a high degree of weight around it, just sadness. But she’s had a wonderful, good, long life and we’ve been very happy. And so we’ll see her off in a beautiful way.

Eric Zimmer 00:58:26  Thank you for sharing that.

Kimi Culp 00:58:27  And I’m so happy that she brought you the joy and that the love that she did. And I think that’s so beautifully put about, you know, the brave act of loving when we know it’s we’re going to experience loss and how clean and simple and heartbreaking that loss is. That really made a lot of sense to me. So I hope you get to soak up a lot of precious moments and these next weeks or months with her.

Eric Zimmer 00:58:57  Yeah. And I’m glad I got to talk about it and give her a on air honor.

Kimi Culp 00:59:01  I shout.

Eric Zimmer 00:59:02  Out, yeah, tell waffles not to forget.

Eric Zimmer 00:59:05  Me. I know now.

Kimi Culp 00:59:06  I feel like an asshole. You’re done.

Eric Zimmer 00:59:07  Passing away.

Kimi Culp 00:59:08  And I’m talking about waffles romping with Beyonce.

Eric Zimmer 00:59:13  Comparative suffering no, I am, I’m joyful for waffles. I am joyful for waffles. And I hope he doesn’t forget you when he’s famous.

Eric Zimmer 00:59:21  That’s all. Yes, yes.

Kimi Culp 00:59:23  Well, I’m glad we got to talk about the power of, you know, dogs and animals and in our lives because I think it’s really, really impactful.

Eric Zimmer 00:59:34  Yeah.

Eric Zimmer 00:59:34  Well, Kimmy, thank you so much. This has been really fun. I knew from the first moment that you and I connected that this was going to be a great conversation. And to my ears, it sure has been.

Kimi Culp 00:59:44  Yes, I feel the same way. I’m a big fan of your show and your work, and I hope everyone listening will discover it if they have not already.

Eric Zimmer 00:59:52  Yep, And right back at you.

Eric Zimmer 00:59:54  Okay. Take care. Okay. Bye bye.

Chris Forbes 01:00:12  If what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a monthly donation to support the One You Feed podcast.

Chris Forbes 01:00:19  When you join our membership community. With this monthly pledge, you get lots of exclusive members only benefits. It’s our way of saying thank you for your support. Now we are so grateful for the members of our community. We wouldn’t be able to do what we do without their support, and we don’t take a single dollar for granted. To learn more, make a donation at any level and become a member of the one you Feed community. Go to one you feed dot net slash join the one you Feed podcast. Would like to sincerely thank our sponsors for supporting the show.