In this episode, Jillian Richardson discusses the journey from loneliness to belonging and shares the small steps that can change everything. She delves into why friendship takes more effort than we expect and how we can actually get better at it. Jillian also explores what gets in the way of connection, why it’s not just about putting yourself out there, and how real community is less about finding perfect people, and more about staying when things feel a little uncomfortable.
Key Takeaways:
- Challenges of forming friendships as adults
- The impact of loneliness on social interactions
- Importance of intention in building connections
- Strategies for fostering deeper relationships
- Role of vulnerability in authentic friendships
- The significance of consistency in maintaining friendships
- Practical advice for initiating and nurturing friendships
- The influence of societal factors on feelings of isolation
- Encouragement to engage in uncomfortable conversations
Jillian Richardson is one of LinkedIn’s top ghostwriters and the Amazon best-selling author of Unlonely Planet: How Healthy Congregations Can Change the World. She has written more than 400 articles on everything from the future of AI to the neuroscience of changing your mind and how female executives can find pleasure in their day-to-day life. Jillian has been published in outlets like NBC, Quartz, AdWeek, and The Content Strategist. She’s also been the voice of brands like MOO, Ellevest, Convene, Percolate, Trello, and ExecOnline. Outside of being a writer, Jillian has grown her own personal brand as a community builder and coach. Her thought leadership has been quoted in The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, and NPR. Her work has also been shared by luminaries like Esther Perel, Priya Parker, the founder of Meetup, and— somehow— Chris Voss, the famous FBI investigator.
Connect with Jillian Richardson: Website | Instagram
If you enjoyed this conversation with Jillian Richardson, check out these other episodes:
How to Find Joy and Community with Radha Agrawal
Belonging and Connection with Sebene Selassie
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Episode Transcript:
Jillian Richardson 00:00:00 So many people share the struggle and just don’t necessarily realize that they don’t have a tolerance for having any sort of uncomfortable conversation.
Chris Forbes 00:00:17 Welcome to the one you feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out or you are what you think ring true. And yet, for many of us, our thoughts don’t strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don’t have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it’s not just about thinking our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf.
Eric Zimmer 00:01:02 Have you ever noticed how making friends is an adult? Feels weirdly complicated. We say we want more connection, but then we don’t go to the thing. Don’t follow up and decide that Netflix just sounds easier. In this episode, I talk with Jillian Richardson, author, coach and creator of the Joy list, about why friendship takes more effort than we expect and how we can actually get better at it. We explore what gets in the way of connection, why it’s not just about putting yourself out there, and how real community is less about finding perfect people, and more about staying when things feel a little uncomfortable. I’ve seen this in my own life. I say I want community, but then I wait for it just to happen. It doesn’t. Connection takes practice. You build it, you show up, you go to the event, you send the text. And in Jillian’s case, you even start a monthly dinner party. I’m Eric Zimmer. And this is the one you feed. Hi, Jillian. Welcome to the show.
Jillian Richardson 00:02:03 Thank you so much for having me.
Eric Zimmer 00:02:05 I am really happy to have you on. We are going to be discussing your book, which is called UN Lonely Planet, and you do a lot of work around connection and building friendships and lots of things that I think are really important. We’ll get to all that in a minute, but we’ll start like we always do with the parable. In the parable, there is a grandmother who’s talking with her grandson, and she says, in life there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandson stops and he thinks about it for a second. He looks up at his grandmother. He says, well, grandmother, which one wins? And the grandmother says, the one you feed. So I’d like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.
Jillian Richardson 00:02:54 For me, what that parable means is who you choose to focus your attention on. I find it really interesting that there are the sorts of people who genuinely believe that people are good, and then there are other people who genuinely believe that most people are bad. And I often think about what the difference is between those two types of people. And I’m really fascinated by the moments when I kind of can get stuck in that headspace of just like, dating is terrible or people are bad, these kind of black and white statements. And I find that the more caring energy and attention I give myself, the more caring and attentive people I magnetize in my own life, and also the media that I consume, kind of what I choose to put my attention on will then also reflect in my experience of the world.
Eric Zimmer 00:03:54 I love that and it makes me think of something that you talk about in your book. You were quoting a study I don’t remember who it’s from, but basically says protracted loneliness makes it difficult for us to evaluate other people’s intentions. Lonely people often feel attacked in situations that are actually neutral. I thought that was a really interesting insight. Like the more often you’re alone by yourself, the more you almost start to do what you said, which is we start to look at other people’s intentions more suspiciously.
Jillian Richardson 00:04:26 Yeah, like you’re at a party and someone just glances at you from across the room and your brain might think, oh my God, that person was giving me the side eye because I look bad or because they’re judging what I said, when in reality they might just be looking at you. But you’re so alert and looking out for signs to confirm you’re already biased, that people don’t like you or people are judgmental, whatever that inclination might be.
Eric Zimmer 00:04:52 Yeah, I just thought it was interesting that the more lonely you are, the more that exacerbates itself. You know, we talk a lot about upward and downward spirals on this show. And that’s a definite downward spiral. Right. So I’m somewhat lonely, but I’m like, all right, I’ll push myself to get out there. And I get out there and I interpret everybody as negative. So I want to do it less. So now all of a sudden I take another downward cycle towards like, all right, I don’t want to go back out. Nobody likes me.
Eric Zimmer 00:05:19 Then I push myself. Finally I get up the moxie to do it another time in similar experience. And so all of a sudden you go, all right, that’s it, I quit.
Jillian Richardson 00:05:27 Yeah. And that leads to so many people saying, oh, it’s impossible to make friends as an adult. For example, how many times I’ve heard people say that when in reality I know so many adults who are yearning for deep friendships, but they’re just not matching each other.
Eric Zimmer 00:05:46 Let’s go right into that, because I think that’s the heart of what, when you and I met and we started talking, I was most interested in because I’m really interested in this idea of loneliness. I’m really interested in the idea of adult friendship, and I think it is harder to form friendships as an adult than say it was when you were at college or as a fourth grader. But to your point, it’s certainly possible. So let’s talk a little bit about what are some of the barriers that get in the way of making adult friendships.
Eric Zimmer 00:06:15 And then maybe we could go into some of the strategies for how to do it. And I know this is something you, in addition to writing about, you actually coach people on. So I’d love to hear some of you know what you find first getting in the way and then secondly, some strategies we could use.
Jillian Richardson 00:06:30 Yeah, well, I think the biggest thing is having the intention and sticking to it. Yeah. I think in one of your earlier podcasts, you mentioned how no one gets fit by accident, or maybe it was one of your guests that you didn’t just wake up one day and you’re super fit, like you’re putting conscious intention and energy into it every day. And I think the same thing goes with making friends as an adult to actually set that as a goal. And it’s so interesting to me how many people find that really strange that someone would set that as a goal, because a lot of people can tell themselves, it’s just something I should know how to do. I should just have friends.
Jillian Richardson 00:07:14 I shouldn’t have to put this much thought into it. There’s something wrong with me because I’m trying to make friends. It feels embarrassing, almost like cringing. And it’s the same as anything else to say. You know, I’m going to go to a new event two times this month, and I’m gonna have my awareness open for people. I might want to be my friend.
Eric Zimmer 00:07:39 Yeah, I think you’re right. You hit on something really important there when we’re young. It’s I mean, not for everybody, but for a lot of people. It’s easier to make friends because everybody is in a similar circumstance. We’re all arriving at college together. Okay. We’re. By and large, we’re all looking for friends. Yeah. So it seems to happen somewhat more naturally when we get older. And it doesn’t happen. Like you said, I often think we think there’s something wrong with me or that it shouldn’t take this much work. So I think that’s a big barrier. I think the second thing I was thinking about this recently, I was like, it seems like there’s a lot of mismatch among adults.
Eric Zimmer 00:08:14 And what I mean by that is, again, when we go to college, we are all roughly 18 years old. And I didn’t go to college, but I’m I know people who did.
Jillian Richardson 00:08:23 I hear you’re I.
Eric Zimmer 00:08:24 Heard about it. I watched my son do it. I’m just using it as an example. But we could say the same thing for fourth grade, right? You show up, you’re all roughly the same age. Your lives all look roughly the same as in, like, your primary responsibility is going to school, hanging out, you know, not everybody, but but most people. But when you’re an adult, you can run into real mismatches. Like, I go to an event and I meet somebody and that person is 15 years older than me and our life circumstances might look very different. They’ve got three kids and a full time job, and I am underemployed and no kids. It’s not that those circumstances are unbridgeable, it just means that sometimes there isn’t room in the same way for friendship, for both those people.
Eric Zimmer 00:09:12 Right. Like, I’ve seen this happen a lot. People are like, I can’t make friends. People don’t like me. And I’m like, well, it might be just that some of the people you’re talking to just don’t have open social calendars. So I think as we get as we get older, it gets harder to find people who social needs meet ours, as well as the basic things that go into making what a friendship would be. So I do think it’s harder as an adult, but it’s certainly not impossible by any stretch of the imagination.
Jillian Richardson 00:09:38 It’s not impossible. And I think also all those factors you just said of how many things need to be in alignment for you to become deeper friends with someone, to hold that in mind. And then when you find someone who actually has the space to deepen friendships, get excited about that person. I think people really hold themselves back from being earnest in friendship, and if it’s okay, I would love to give an example of some friends that I recently made.
Jillian Richardson 00:10:07 Yeah, because I talk to people about this stuff all the time, and I know how magic it is when the things actually line up. So what happened was I had someone he reached out to me on Instagram and said he was doing a storytelling show. I went to the storytelling show and we talked a little bit, and he invited me to a party that him and two friends host every month. I go to the party, I love it, I love the energy of the people there. It’s just this really warm, sweet group of people. I decide I’m going to go to this party every month. After the party message both of the hosts and explicitly say, I had so much fun at your party. I think the energy of the people at parties matches the hosts. So I didn’t really get to talk to you about that much, but I really enjoyed being in your space, which is vulnerable to say that. It’s like kind of putting myself out there a little bit. That’s right. And it’s just a whole long process of I keep going to this party every month.
Jillian Richardson 00:11:08 Start to become friends with the hosts. Say just explicitly say, I would like to hang out with you. Start hanging out with them at their house and start to kind of meet their friends. And we’re all having dinner this Sunday, and I’m so earnest, like, we just started a group chat and I literally said, oh my God, I’m so excited we’re in a group chat. Yeah, this is so sweet because most people don’t want to seem too excited, like it’s lame to want friends. But I think it’s really brave to say to someone that you’re excited about getting to know them more.
Eric Zimmer 00:11:45 I think so too. And you mentioned three sort of relationship strengthening tactics. The second one is we really have to practice positivity, the reward and enjoyment of each other. You know, we did a episode recently where Jenny interviewed Chris and I, and Chris is the editor of the show, and him and I have been friends for, I don’t know, a long time. 25, 2830. I don’t know, a lot of years.
Eric Zimmer 00:12:11 No. Yeah.
Jillian Richardson 00:12:12 Wow.
Eric Zimmer 00:12:12 32, 33 years. Something like that. Best friend.
Jillian Richardson 00:12:15 Longer than I have been on this earth.
Eric Zimmer 00:12:17 Oh my goodness. Yes. But we talked a little bit about how, for whatever reason, when we first became friends, like we were so excited about being friends and we talked about how excited we were to be friends. And we share. I mean, we’ve just always shared this positivity, which I think is part of what has contributed to making it such a close friendship for so long.
Jillian Richardson 00:12:40 It’s so nice to know. And it’s really a skill I think, to be able to do that with people. For me, when I when I meet someone who’s able to also offer that vulnerability and say, you know, I had a lot of fun hanging out with you tonight, I would love to do that again. I know, like this is a person I really want to spend time with, because I’ve looked at friendships long enough to realize that’s a really special quality in somebody.
Eric Zimmer 00:13:06 You talk a lot about vulnerability. That was kind of the first in these relationship strengthening tactics. You know, in order to feel seen, we have to practice vulnerability, the sharing of who we are. Is there a line for you where vulnerability crosses into neediness? We’ve all had an experience of somebody who is so desperate to be liked that they’re hard to like. Yeah, and there’s a difference between that and being vulnerable. And I’m just curious if you have any thoughts on what that difference is or how you navigate that.
Jillian Richardson 00:13:37 I can’t give a one size fits all answer, but what I would invite people to do is check in with themselves about their intention behind sharing something and to say like, okay, am I sharing about some really traumatic childhood experience super early on with this person so they feel bad for me? Or just to be honest with yourself about what? Why are you sharing this thing? Because that’s something I’ve definitely done before of kind of oversharing and then afterwards feeling embarrassed. I’m like, why did I say that? Why? Why did I say that to this person? And I think underneath it is just a really strong desire to connect.
Jillian Richardson 00:14:22 Yeah. And but at the same time, by sharing too much too soon, I’m kind of creating a power imbalance and I’m putting too much on the other person in a way that isn’t fair.
Eric Zimmer 00:14:36 Yeah. And it seems to me that if we think about this, it’s probably good to know your tendency and to be aware of it and correct for it. So yes, in the Spiritual Habits program we talk about the middle way. It’s one of the core ideas and principles. And it basically says, look, any virtue so to speak, is a middle point between two vices. Right. Courage is a middle point between being, you know, rash and idiotic and a coward. Right. So knowing which of those sides do I have a tendency to just sit back and be way too stoic when I meet new people and not share and not be vulnerable and not express that I’m excited to be friends with them. If that’s my tendency, maybe I want to work on course correcting a little bit more towards the vulnerable side.
Eric Zimmer 00:15:20 If, on the other hand, I have a tendency of, you know, ten minutes after meeting somebody, telling them about, you know, my deep, dark abuse secrets and saying, I love you. I hope we spend every day the rest of our lives together. Right. I might want to dial that tendency down a bit. And so it’s useful to know, like what is my tendency and to correct for it. But my experience with most adults is that our tendency is to be much less vulnerable. To not take a chance of deepening a conversation, of deepening a relationship. That’s been my experience of, you know, being an adult for 30 years now, almost as long as you’ve been on the planet. I suppose you’re about to tell me again. I know from your writings you believe in cultivating the voices of elders, so I’m glad I can. Glad I can fill that role. But my experience with most adults is we’re more on the whole back side than we are on the be vulnerable side.
Jillian Richardson 00:16:14 Totally. I find there’s a specific type of person who is craving this more open, vulnerable friendship and who also has the capacity to foster that. And I find that when we meet each other we’re so stoked. Yes. I heard someone recently say it’s like we’re in the same graduating class. Like we understand each other’s kind of just way of being in the world. And I loved that way of phrasing it so much.
Eric Zimmer 00:16:41 Yeah. And while I don’t specifically coach people on creating friendship in the way that you do, that has been something that a number of my clients over the years have said, you know, they would they would like more of and and we talk a lot about that basic idea of like, at some juncture somebody has to take quote unquote, the next step. In the same way in a dating situation, somebody’s got to sort of say, all right, I’m going to I’m going to take a chance of seeing where does this go if I take the next step. I think the same thing happens in friendship for sure, where even if that next step is just to drop one level deeper in intimacy of conversation, to say, all right, we’ve been hanging out here on the surface.
Eric Zimmer 00:17:24 I’m going to take the chance to go one level deeper. And I’ve shared this on the show before. I used to do that at work all the time. Like, I mean, I just in the beginning, after I got sober at 24, I would just walk into a room and be like, hey, I’m a, I’m a heroin addict. You know, I got sober six months ago and I, you know, over time I was like, all right, we need to dial that down a little bit. But I always had that tendency of I would just go a little bit deeper than most people would. And I just found that over and over that paid dividends for me in that it made me much better at my work. A because people trusted me more. And b, I just made more friends that way, more authentic friendships that way, by simply just being willing to be a little bit more open about what mattered.
Jillian Richardson 00:18:07 Yeah, because I imagine the people who are really uncomfortable with you sharing those parts of yourself weren’t comfortable with the parts of themselves that were struggling.
Jillian Richardson 00:18:16 And those aren’t people that you want to be friends with.
Eric Zimmer 00:18:18 That’s right. Yeah. You’re just like, well, I mean, I never really found it to be that damaging. I mean, maybe I had good enough self-esteem that I was just sort of like, well, not everybody has to like me.
Jillian Richardson 00:18:27 Yeah.
Eric Zimmer 00:18:28 But yeah, I just I think that is such an important piece is to sort of just recognize, like, if I want this relationship, I’ve met somebody that seems like I like them. How do we take it to the next level? And I think your suggestions in the book of being more vulnerable, practicing positivity. And then the third one you talk about is consistency. Share a little bit more about that.
Jillian Richardson 00:18:48 Yeah, I think especially if people live in a big city, it can be difficult to find the time to see someone consistently. This is a problem I will still run up against of having so many people I really, genuinely love and want to spend time with, but then we just don’t have the time and energy to coordinate our schedules and figure out the spot and do the whole thing.
Jillian Richardson 00:19:08 And so to have these kind of central meeting places, for example, it could be a dance party or a house party or a meditation class that you go to or a yoga class say, okay, I’m doing this thing every week or every month, and I know if you want to find me, I will be there. Or if I want to find you, you’ll probably be there. And it’s a great way to just consistently see people be around the types of people who value the same things that you do, and also to start to deepen those relationships a little bit.
Eric Zimmer 00:19:39 One of the things that I’ve noticed we may be working with slightly different demographics, potentially, as we’ve already sort of laid out, the the age difference between us, right, is that a lot of people that I work with say they want more community, but their lives are very, very full and they just tend to not make time for it. That’s something that I found very interesting. And somebody who’s trying to build a community is that people say, yes, I want that, yes, I want that.
Eric Zimmer 00:20:07 But then they don’t show up that often for it. Totally. A lot of the people that are sort of in our communities are going to be people who are deep in career and deep in family, so that’s part of it. But do you see that also where people say, I want friendships, I want community, but then they just simply don’t put the effort or the time in. They just default to Netflix and hanging out.
Jillian Richardson 00:20:31 Totally. And I think it’s especially that people don’t want the uncomfortable parts that come with community, which is there’s going to be conflicts and there’s going to be maybe some people you don’t like, or you’re going to be jealous of someone, or someone’s going to mirror something in you that feels awkward or uncomfortable. And it’s so easy to just be like, well, I guess I’m never going to hang out with these people again. Or I guess I just won’t communicate what’s going on. And then I feel disconnected from these people, and then I kind of just drift away and I tell myself, oh, we just drifted apart.
Jillian Richardson 00:21:08 But really, I haven’t been communicating the truth of my heart and I’ve been creating this distance myself. That was a lot. I had a lot of energy behind that, but it really feels very annoying to me because I think so many people share this struggle and just don’t necessarily realize that they don’t have a tolerance for having any sort of uncomfortable conversation.
Eric Zimmer 00:21:57 I am not a good group joiner. I think I’m decent at fostering individual relationships, but I’ve never been a group joiner, particularly over the last five years. I’ve gotten clear that a lot of it is what you were just saying. I’m looking for the perfect community. I’m looking for the community where I like everyone. So if I’m thinking of a Buddhist community or a spiritual community, I’m like, yeah, those couple people seem all right, but I don’t like those three people, so this isn’t the place for me.
Jillian Richardson 00:22:24 Yeah. So I’m never coming here again.
Eric Zimmer 00:22:26 Yeah. Which is what I would do over and over and over. And so I heard somebody say once and use words a little bit.
Eric Zimmer 00:22:32 I don’t remember exactly which ones, but you alluded to it a little bit, which was that part of the point of community, is to rub off our rough edges, that by interacting with these other people, it smooths us out and allows us to integrate more harmoniously into a group. And I thought once I heard that, I went, oh, that makes a lot of sense. The point here isn’t that I like everybody and they’re all my best friends. The point is, I’m interacting with a variety of different people and that there’s benefit and beauty in that.
Jillian Richardson 00:23:01 Totally. There’s benefit in me being around people who I wouldn’t choose to be my friend, but the sheer nature of our differences is actually good for us just to be able to be in that.
Eric Zimmer 00:23:11 Yeah. How do you work with people who are saying, yeah, I want community, but aren’t putting the effort in to get it? It’s very similar to somebody who says they want to be in shape, but they’re not putting the effort to get into it.
Eric Zimmer 00:23:24 What sort of things have you found helps unblock?
Jillian Richardson 00:23:27 I think the biggest thing is to start by asking questions around their fears, say, well, okay, there’s clearly something that’s preventing you from doing this, because if you are 100% in, you wouldn’t need anyone to help you. You would just be doing it. So a lot of times I’ll ask people, what’s been your experience with communities in the past? And oftentimes something really awful will come up like, oh, I was part of this group and a girl in the group, like cheated on my boyfriend. You know, I’m trying to say that. Yeah, my boyfriend cheated on me with this person in the group. There was a terrible experience, or I got bullied or I didn’t feel like I fit in there. Anything along those lines were unconsciously there thinking, well, I had a really bad experience in a community before, so why would I want to put myself through that again? But just don’t take the time to reflect on it, because I think even in the world of personal development, where we reflect so much on all these elements of ourselves constantly, rarely think about our relationship to group and kind of in-group outgroup.
Jillian Richardson 00:24:28 What’s my experience with community? Because culturally we don’t care about it very much. So why would we think about it consciously?
Eric Zimmer 00:24:35 Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So if I am a person and I say, okay, I’m lonely, I want to change that. Where do I start? You know, what are some things I can start doing? Let’s just say I’m like, well, I’ll give you a little bit more than that to go on. I work from home. I have 3 or 4 other people that, you know, I interact with in my company, and I’ve known them for a while, and they’re fine. But we’re not going to be great friends. I don’t have a church that I want to go to. I’m lonely and I’m not sure where to start. What are some initial steps I can take? And you can tailor this answer to ways you can tailor it towards New York City, which is, or a big city, which is where you are.
Eric Zimmer 00:25:13 And you’ve created something called the Joy list, and lots of great things. But we could also talk about people who are in a place that’s not quite so vibrant.
Jillian Richardson 00:25:19 Yeah, I’ll go a little more general. Okay. And I feel very excited about this question. The first question I always ask people is, what kind of person do you want to be? Who do you want to be just in life. And also, how do you want to exist within the place where you live? Could be New York City, could be somewhere else. Because you might not want to be a group person. You might say, you know, my ideal vision for my friendships and my community is maybe I’m kind of the hub for parties in my neighborhood. I have dinner parties, people come to me, I have an awesome backyard. I’ve got a core group of ten friends, and we host stuff once a month. That might be your vision for yourself, and that’s awesome. Like already having just a vision for what you want, and especially the qualities you say, I want to be around people who care about spirituality.
Jillian Richardson 00:26:14 I want to be the kind of person who’s a generous host. I want to care for my body, even say, okay, what types of people care about those things? Where can you meet those types of people? Because if you want to meet spiritual nerds who love working out. Just go into the bar every Friday night. You’re probably not going to meet those people. Or if you do meet those people, you don’t know that you’re meeting those people because you’re not in that context.
Eric Zimmer 00:26:42 Yep. Let’s run with this example. So let’s say I live in a mid-sized community somewhere in the US, and I’m like, yeah, that is what I want. I just moved to this new town. I’d like to have a small group of friends. I do have a wonderful backyard and I’ve got a great patio. I love to cook dinner. I just love to have a group of friends that gets together once or twice a month in my backyard, and we hang out and we have dinner and we just have some nice conversation.
Eric Zimmer 00:27:06 Like, that would be amazing for me compared to where I’m at now. What do I do if someone came to you with that’s what I want.
Jillian Richardson 00:27:12 So I have some friends. They are nomads and they’re constantly traveling, but they’re somehow also always hosting things themselves, even in countries where they don’t really know people. And it’s wild. And I ask them, how do you manage to pull this off? And they’ll say, okay, well, I know three people in this town, and I tell them I want to host a dinner party. Can each of you invite three people? And you could even say, can you invite three people you know who might love spirituality? If you want to get a little more specific, suddenly you have a ten person dinner party, and then at the end of that say, you know, I’m going to do this again next month, same day next month. Would love it if you guys could invite some people. I want to make this a monthly thing, and even having the next day and saying to people, I’d love for you to come again.
Jillian Richardson 00:28:00 I have two friends who do this every month, and they have an incredibly vibrant community that comes to them. It’s a pretty sweet deal.
Eric Zimmer 00:28:07 Yeah. So you take whoever you know and you use those people to sort of network out from there.
Jillian Richardson 00:28:14 Totally. And even if you wanted to be as vulnerable as saying, I want to create a deeper community for myself here, it’d be so helpful if you guys can invite some folks that’d feel really good for me, because I find when people know why you’re asking them something, they’re more likely to do it instead of you just being like, oh yeah. Invite some friends if you want. Like there’s a reason why you’re asking them to do.
Eric Zimmer 00:28:35 That, right? You’re taking that step of being a little bit vulnerable and asking for what you want.
Jillian Richardson 00:28:41 Because it’s like, oh my God, who doesn’t want to say like, oh yeah, let me invite my three coolest friends so you can meet them. Yeah, this is great.
Eric Zimmer 00:28:46 So what if I’m not even in that place where I know much of anybody in that town? So, yeah, I moved here for my job.
Eric Zimmer 00:28:54 I’m a shy person. I just don’t really know anyone. Where do I start? There.
Jillian Richardson 00:28:59 So something that I recommend that is very simple but definitely not easy is posting on social media if you have it, or sending an email and saying, hey, I just moved to wherever you live. I’m looking to meet people who are interested in blah blah blah. Who do you know? And this is something that is so simple, but folks love this kind of post on the internet because all they have to do is tag somebody and they get to feel great about themselves. And it takes two seconds and you might have three, five, ten people who all of a sudden you can reach out to. And all you had to do was just let people know that you’re looking for that.
Eric Zimmer 00:29:37 That’s a great idea. What about starting to attend gatherings or volunteer events? All right. I’m willing to put myself out there a little bit. Yeah. In order to meet some new people. What does that look like? How do I go about finding things? What do I do when I get there? When I attend them? Again, if you’re in New York City, you get on Jillian’s joy list.
Jillian Richardson 00:29:58 Yeah you do.
Eric Zimmer 00:29:59 I see that joy list every time I’m like, I am jealous. That is so cool. So much great stuff there.
Jillian Richardson 00:30:05 Lots of weird stuff going on in New York City.
Eric Zimmer 00:30:07 Totally. But what do I do if I don’t have that? Where are some places I can turn to that are more broadly accessible ways to find gatherings, things that I’m interested in, etc.?
Jillian Richardson 00:30:18 Yeah. So first of all, I would start on Meetup and Eventbrite. On Eventbrite, there’s a filter that you can look for. There’s there’s different event categories, and there’s one called community. There’s literally an event category called community. So you can say, okay, what are the community events happening in my neighborhood this week? Or you could filter for fitness events. You could filter for religious events. You can even filter by a keyword. You could look for a women’s circle, for example, or the word sober and just see what pops up. And to then commit to yourself to say, okay, I’m going to go to this group at least twice.
Jillian Richardson 00:30:56 Like, even if the first time I don’t like it very much, or even if the first time I feel so nervous and I don’t talk to anyone and I feel really weird to go twice. And also, you said the magic word before, which is volunteer. I think, honestly, this is the biggest hack for making friends in a new place is to go to an event that has the kinds of people that you think you’d like. Like, for example, in New York City there’s this big meditation event called medi club, and I would volunteer at this event every month because the people who volunteer are more likely to want to make new friends. That’s a big reason why people volunteer. But also, it gives you direct access to the organizers of the event, and the organizers of events are usually community hubs who are more than happy to introduce you to whoever you want.
Eric Zimmer 00:32:09 So find events and if you can volunteer at them. And I think the other thing you said there’s really important is to go at least twice, you know, if not more.
Eric Zimmer 00:32:19 Right. I’ve started recently doing this thing in Columbus. I love doing so. Volunteer is called Food Rescue and it’s basically there’s an organization there all around the country, but they basically find food that’s going to be thrown away somewhere, whether it’s from a restaurant, a grocery store or whatever. And then they match that up with a place that needs it, and you basically go get it from one place, take it to another. But they’ve had this thing where they distribute these like thousands of boxes of produce every Friday. And so I was like, all right, I’m going to start going. And I am not actually very good at plot. Me in a new environment with a bunch of people I don’t know. I don’t do well in that environment. I am sort of shy. I’m sort of quiet. I’m sort of withdrawn. And it’s interesting. It’s not even that I notice that I’m shy and withdrawn. That’s part of it. But but what’s interesting is my defense mechanisms kick in enough that I don’t even feel like I want to get to know anybody in that environment.
Eric Zimmer 00:33:12 It’s so interesting. It’s like, if you ask me on Wednesday night when I’m going to this thing on Friday, would you like to meet some new people there? I’m like, of course I would. That would be great. Put me there Friday. And all of a sudden I’m like, my phone is really interesting to me right now.
Jillian Richardson 00:33:25 Right. You’re like, look at my shoes. I’ve got really cool shoes.
Eric Zimmer 00:33:28 Oh, man. Maybe I should just sit in the car and listen to this book on tape. It’s so interesting to me the way that happens. My defense mechanisms rise up so quickly, I don’t even see them. And then they’re like, you don’t really? Who cares? You don’t need to make anything so interesting anyway. I’ve been going to this thing on Fridays, and, I mean, I think it took like five times before I started actually getting into conversation with people like I was there. We were friendly. Hey, how are you doing? Good. Let’s load these boxes.
Eric Zimmer 00:33:55 Like. But after about the fifth time, something in me just shifted and I naturally started to just sort of emerge from my shell a little bit. And so I just know that about me, that it takes me a little while. And so I know if I’m going to embed myself in something like that, I’m going to have to go multiple times. But I imagine there are things that I could do if I wanted to accelerate that process. What might be some ways of getting into the conversational flow or meeting somebody or again, just going from sort of standing there to engaging a little bit more.
Jillian Richardson 00:34:28 Well, I think you are definitely not alone, or I know you’re not alone in your experience of going to an event that’s not facilitated and not being sure how to go deeper with people because you don’t know the norms of the space, you don’t know what’s acceptable there. You don’t really know who these people are. It’s like going to a giant happy hour. That’s a networking event where no one tells you what to do, and you’re just like, yeah, we’re supposed to connect with each other.
Jillian Richardson 00:34:53 What the hell is this? Like, this is awful. Which is why and I’m such an extroverted person, but I hate things like that with a passion, because it’s such a draining environment for me to be in, where there is no understanding of what you’re supposed to do in the space. You’re kind of just thrown into this giant room of people talking over each other. So the biggest thing I would say is that if you can find an event that has facilitation, try that. So for example, in New York City, And this is a very New York City thing. But there’s this thing called vulnerable AF that this woman named Veronica runs. It’s like a great name. And now she she goes on tour and she does it, and it’s so great, but it’s essentially just facilitated conversations where she’s giving you prompts to say to strangers, and there’s some group exercises, and there’s no way you’re not going to leave that event without having had a deeper conversation with someone. And the people who show up at that event are obviously looking to have deeper conversations with new people.
Jillian Richardson 00:35:53 So you’re kind of already all in the same space.
Eric Zimmer 00:35:55 That’s a great event, and I think that’s really good advice. Go to something that is sort of facilitated. It’s one of the reasons why I’ve always been grateful to have been a member of AA. Yeah, I’m not real involved now, but I’m like, if I move to a new city, like, how easy is it? I just start going to meeting the meetings, have conversations that are already structured. You get to hear a bunch of people talk and be like, I like what that guy had to say. I like what she had to say, okay, those are the kind of people I got my eye on. It makes it happen so much easier than what you described, which is like this food rescue situation where I show up and again now, this organization is not designed to help people meet each other. It’s designed to get food to the places it needs to go. So if my food rescue friends are listening, none of this is criticism.
Jillian Richardson 00:36:40 It’s like no shade, you guys, right?
Eric Zimmer 00:36:41 Like, yeah, it’s not what it’s about. But you describe this sort of event that a lot of us show up to. We go, all right, I’m going to volunteer somewhere. And I think you make a really good point that where we’re volunteering puts us in proximity to the people, but there are no real rules for interaction, and there’s no guided interaction. It kind of falls all on your own moxie. And again, what I’ve learned about me is that my moxie will grow over time. You know, there’s just something that naturally thaws in me if I’m around the same people enough times. But I love that idea of going to things that are facilitated as a way of that naturally happening in our Spiritual Habits group program. I think we break the big group up into small groups that meet every week, and there’s been a lot of really great deep relationships formed there. And I think to a large extent it’s where we train the facilitators. But secondly, there is a facilitated conversation about things that matter to you right away.
Eric Zimmer 00:37:37 So immediately there is a way to engage and make deeper connection because it is, as you said, a sort of facilitated event. Questions are asked. There’s conversation. It happens.
Jillian Richardson 00:37:49 Yeah. I think this is why these question card games have suddenly blown up in popularity. Like, everyone under the sun has a set of question cards that they’re selling.
Eric Zimmer 00:37:58 I don’t.
Jillian Richardson 00:37:59 Because.
Eric Zimmer 00:37:59 I think I need some question.
Jillian Richardson 00:38:00 You should make some question cards. Esther Perel just came out with a game based off of her podcast. That’s entirely questions that increase in vulnerability, and they’re all questions about storytelling so that you tell a story. You should have her on your podcast. She she’s promoting this new game right now, but I’ve had a few friends say that at their dinner parties. They’ve actually played her game. Interesting. And it’s so great because I find that when we’re around the same people a lot, we lose curiosity about them. Like they kind of just become something that they’re just they’re like, oh yeah, this is my friend I’ve known since I was five.
Jillian Richardson 00:38:38 What else is there for me to know about this person? And then you ask them a question like, oh, what’s one of your favorite memories of being with your grandma? Like, when have you ever talked about that with them before? Probably never. Never. And so you’re gonna get this whole new thing.
Eric Zimmer 00:38:50 I’ve been friends with Chris, as I said, for a really long time. I couldn’t tell you the first thing about his grandparents.
Jillian Richardson 00:38:55 Yeah, I find grandparents is a really interesting thing, because most adults that would never come up in conversation. But there’s so much you can learn about someone’s family and their culture from talking about that.
Eric Zimmer 00:39:08 With Chris, it’s probably going to end up being a conversation about like, drunk uncles or something if I if I know anything about that family. But yeah, same thing. My family too. No, not not.
Jillian Richardson 00:39:19 I mean, that’s a family culture for sure.
Eric Zimmer 00:39:21 Total family culture. I have a uncle who who died from alcoholism, so I am just in it myself.
Eric Zimmer 00:39:26 Before we maybe change directions a little bit for for the last few minutes. What else about making friendship, creating community? What else should people know? Or what are some really important things from your coaching practice that you would share with people?
Jillian Richardson 00:39:39 I think the biggest thing is to really be kind to yourself in this process. Folks can be so brutal to themselves and so judgmental just being like, man, it’s pathetic that I don’t have friends. Like, what kind of loser doesn’t know how to make friends? Like, these mean vicious things people will say to themselves when in reality, the average American hasn’t made a new friend in five years. Wow. And 75% of Americans are not satisfied with their friendships. So more likely than not, any person you meet is looking for new friends and is looking for deeper connection. And the people who have really rich friend groups are in the vast minority, and that’s so important for people to keep in mind.
Eric Zimmer 00:40:27 Yeah, that’s a really good point. And you say early on in your book that loneliness is systematic.
Eric Zimmer 00:40:33 It’s not an individual problem. It’s systematic. Right. So to your point, if we don’t have as rich a friendship or community life as we want, we are like you said, we are far from alone. Matter of fact, we are in the majority and the way our society is set up makes it harder and harder to do that and have that. And so it’s not an individual failing.
Jillian Richardson 00:40:53 Totally not an individual failing at all.
Eric Zimmer 00:40:55 I think the second thing there is kind of what I just did a little bit not to be like, oh, look how great I am. But if you know it, hey, you’re great. I’m great. No, but but when I talked about going to this food rescue thing, right, like 15 years ago, I’d have been really hard on myself. Like, why are you not talking to people? You’re not meeting people. What’s wrong with you? And now I’m just a lot more kind with myself. And I go. I know my process.
Eric Zimmer 00:41:19 Yeah, it takes me a few times, so. Okay. Yeah, that’s the way I am. So I know I just need to go a few more times. I’ll get there instead of being like walking in the first time and being like, if I don’t walk out of here with three friends, I failed. Yeah. And I think that’s how a lot of us orient towards this. I want more friends. I’m going to go to this event. I walk out, I don’t have any friends. I failed, and so I’m not going to do it again because who wants to keep failing?
Jillian Richardson 00:41:42 Totally. And how many people have that mindset in all sorts of things, like a job interview or going on dates be like, well, this one was bad, confirms what I already thought. So I’m just not going to do this again.
Eric Zimmer 00:41:55 Yeah, that’s a really good point. You had some funny things I saw on social recently. You know, I think you’re dating and you and your friends were riffing on reasons that somebody might not be getting back to you.
Eric Zimmer 00:42:06 the different reasons. And I was laughing because because the interpretation is they’re not getting back to me because they don’t like me. And you’re like, well, they might be tripping on LSD. They might be high AF, you know. They might. I thought it was funny, like just riffing. Like, here’s all the different reasons.
Jillian Richardson 00:42:20 Yeah, I was talking to a female friend because we’re both dating. And how funny it is that if, like, we’re at a party and someone’s being kind of weird with us or they’re not responding to our text, our assumption is, well, they think I’m gross and bad and I’m just awful. And that’s why they’re not asking me out or whatever. And then we started talking about actual reasons when we’ve misinterpreted what was going on. And she told the funniest story of how this guy was sending her text that didn’t make sense, and she thought that he was trying to avoid going on a date with her, when in reality he was just tripping super hard.
Jillian Richardson 00:42:58 You know, it was like the best story. That’s so great. Like, keep your phone off. That’s right. Your phone on airplanes might not be making. Maybe they’re drunk or maybe they’re high or I don’t know. I also thank you for supporting my internet life. It feels good.
Eric Zimmer 00:43:14 You know, you’re in the middle of the psychedelic renaissance when you have to be like, well, we’re no longer talking about drunk dialing. We’re talking about tripping, texting. Don’t do it. I want to shift directions for a second and talk about something that you have done. One program you did was called Allied, although you’ve done several others. Allied was a seven week training for white leaders to skillfully engage in conversations about race, and we’ve had a bunch of conversations around race on this show. We’re primarily a white audience. I’d love to know some of what you’ve learned through those various trainings you’ve done. I know I’m asking you a huge topic with, you know, like four minutes left in the conversation.
Eric Zimmer 00:43:54 So but yeah, but any any things that really stood out to you that gave you like, okay, as a, as a white person, if I want to be a better ally, here are some of the things I’m going to do.
Jillian Richardson 00:44:05 Yeah I can quickly say so. Allied was led by this teacher named Harry Pickens, who is a black man who wanted to work with white leaders, and the biggest thing I got from that was, how can we train our nervous systems to be okay in conversations where we are not comfortable, especially with people who do not agree with us? And a case study we were looking at a lot is Darryl Davis, who is a black man who famously befriended members of the Klu Klux Klan and then actually got them to leave because he was in relationship with them. And the process took a very long time. And, of course, that’s not an approach that a lot of people agree with, but it’s one that is really interesting in that that’s the ultimate example of being comfortable across lines of difference and being with people who might not like you at all.
Jillian Richardson 00:44:59 And so I have really tried. And of course, as I’m saying this, I’m judging myself for not doing better, but to be with folks like who are white conservatives, for example, to talk about their beliefs or to be comfortable, because I can really fall into people pleasing, to be comfortable enough to challenge people. And just to say, just having these sentence stems in my back pocket like, oh, why do you think that? Or oh, has that been your experience? And to just give people the space to kind of talk out this thing they might think of without without questioning it? So that was one thing. And the second thing I’ll quickly say is that I did this training called Bridges and Boundaries, which was three days. primarily white folks, but there are also some black folks in the room. And it was a very intense, super in-your-face training about looking at your own racism. And really, the main point that I got from that was that white people are racist. And we do think that we’re better than other races, and we have to acknowledge that in ourselves in order to move forwards and to just.
Jillian Richardson 00:46:11 And I feel hot even saying that out loud. But to be like I think I’m better. I have to tell myself that I’ve been so programmed my entire life, and our country’s been programmed to think that I’m better. And people of color know that. We think that. And if we can’t say that to ourselves, we can’t do any work. I mean, that weekend kicked me in the face. It was not fun.
Eric Zimmer 00:46:36 I bet. You know, it makes me think my initial like instantly that uncomfortableness raises a defense in me where I want to go, but people of other races think they’re better than that. There’s an in-group outgroup thing, right? But the difference, of course, is that our race is controlling everything and is in in charge of everything. Yeah, we interviewed Ibram X. Kendi on the show, and one of the things that he talked about that I found so valuable was to move away from saying, I am or I am not a racist, or you are or you are not a racist.
Eric Zimmer 00:47:11 And instead to say I have some racist thoughts. I have some racist beliefs. I did a racist thing, and I found that a really interesting switch, because it’s a little bit like the difference between shame. I am bad. I am a racist too. I do think racist things, oh, I have behaviors, actions, etc. that are that way and thusly I can work on changing them. For me, that was a way of sort of being able to walk into the ground you’re talking about and go, yes, I do. I have racist thoughts. I think things that are racist, I have done things that are racist, thoughts that run through my head was really helpful, because then I was able to sort of, again, step out of the shame of, I’m this awful person to I have these behaviors, right? Which is sort of the difference between, I think healthy guilt and shame. Shame is I’m bad. Healthy guilt is I’m doing things that don’t match my values. I want to change.
Jillian Richardson 00:48:10 And I think a part of this training that was so impactful of having it be a mixed race group, was to realize, okay, it’s so uncomfortable for me to look at these racist parts of myself, and if I don’t, I’m going to keep unintentionally hurting these other people in the room. Yeah. So which which one am I going to choose? Because we’re we’re being forced to choose, like look at ourselves and say, okay, if I don’t examine this stuff, which I have the full power to never examine and never look at and never think about because it’s deeply uncomfortable, I will, for the rest of my life, hurt people more. And of course, I’m still going to do racist stuff for the rest of my life because it’s just I’m a human, but I’ll probably do it a little bit more. Or at least I’ll be able to apologize more skillfully in the future. If I look at this stuff.
Eric Zimmer 00:48:59 That’s really powerful and and really difficult work. We’re at the end of our time.
Eric Zimmer 00:49:04 You and I are going to go into the post-show conversation, and I actually want to explore something you said a few minutes ago in more detail. You talked about challenging people or having open conversation with people who think different things than us, particularly maybe around a topic like race. As we head into the holidays, many people are going to about to get some great opportunities for this. Yes. And so let’s talk about some skills, because I do think there’s there’s a difference between term, my Thanksgiving dinner table into a nuclear war versus actually engage in dialogue with people who think differently than me in a hope of increasing understanding. So we’ll talk about that in the post-show conversation. Listeners, if you’d like access to the post-show conversation, you can go to one you feed join. You’ll get this post-show conversation. You’ll get ad free episodes. You’ll get a special episode I do every week called Teaching Song, and a poem where I share a song I love, a poem I love, as well as a teaching and lots of other great benefits of being a member.
Eric Zimmer 00:50:04 When you feed, Net join. Gillian, thank you so much for coming on. I have really, really enjoyed this and and it’s been a pleasure to get to talk with you for everyone.
Jillian Richardson 00:50:13 Thank you for having me. I feel super energized.
Eric Zimmer 00:50:31 Thank you so much for listening to the show. If you found this conversation helpful, inspiring, or thought provoking, I’d love for you to share it with a friend. Sharing from one person to another is the lifeblood of what we do. We don’t have a big budget, and I’m certainly not a celebrity, but we have something even better. And that’s you just hit the share button on your podcast app, or send a quick text with the episode link to someone who might enjoy it. Your support means the world, and together we can spread wisdom one episode at a time. Thank you for being part of the one You Feed community.
